Gothic 3: What do the armor class numbers mean? [spoilers]

[Zaghadka]

Having some trouble with Gothic 3 and armor behavior. I saved up for some Druid
Robes, which by all indications should be *better* than my previous Light Rebel
Armor, but a Shadowbeast just killed me in three hits and I don't remember them
being anything like that damaging before. I had killed several at close range
with a much lower strength and hunt skill, lower health, and light armor on. I
think I would have noticed three hits killing me before.

Do the druid robes suck?

My armor numbers, due to rings and such, are +55 against blades, +55 against
impact and +30 against missile weapons in the druid robe. They were much less
in the Light armor. I have 330 life points. Is there some kind of bug with
druid robes? Because they appear to be worse than Light armor. I'll be checking
the forums, but they're hard to navigate. I noticed similar things with the
regular Rebel Armor not seeming to protect me any better than the Light,
despite the ostensibly higher protection values. So I saved my coin. Now, by
the numbers, clearly *better* robes seem to be affording me LESS protection.

To add insult to injury, I took robes training, which claims it "doubles robe
effectiveness," yet my numbers didn't go up at all! I tried unequipping and
reequipping the armor to no effect. The skill description *seems* to imply that
the Druid robe's +30 vs. impact/blades should go up to +60 (for the robe
alone). I've still got 55's after taking this skill.

So do these numbers mean *anything*? I've already noticed that wolves, even the
wimpy 50 xp variety, and ogres are the most deadly things I've run into so far,
because they can get in about 3 or 4 attacks a second. I can take down a Golem
(400 xp) without breaking a sweat with my staff, but I still can't reliably
take out a pack of lowly wolves. In fact, they seem to be getting HARDER, which
is just *weird*. It seems almost like monsters are doing damage by percentage
of total health, because no matter how many life points I get, the red bar
seems to drop just as fast.

In truth, it doesn't feel like there's a numerically based system working here
at all. More a matching system, where a combination of weapon vs. armor = good
result or bad, regardless of other factors.

What's going on here? I've seen similar things in other places in the game,
such as the one-hit kills against undead if you're using a staff. The combat
feels more like Ultima IX, where your choice of weapon was everything. Like the
crabs which could take a beating with a sword, but were one-hit creampuffs with
a staff. Because I took staff training early, I was able to cut through Gotha
in minutes, but still struggle with a single Shadow Beast.

Is that the way this game works? I'm starting to get frustrated, and I can't
figure out why my level 35 character does *worse* with a pack of wolves than I
could at level 1. If there's something obvious I'm missing, please help,
because I'm ready to put this buggy mess down if it doesn't get better soon. Is
this a "mix and match" combat system?

Thanks for your time.

[johns]

I've found it to be an interaction between a number of things
which you might not be watching for. I tried all the swords,
and the major telling factor is the length of the sword. The
Ruby Blade is the top sword no matter what hit points you
have. If you are using a Bastard Sword, the wolves will get
you every time. The only time a Bastard Sword is good
is in close quarters with the Orcs. Even then, a Ruby
Sword is much better if you do a spinning attack out in
the open. Terrain is a big factor too. If you pin a beast
against an obstacle, you'll get him ... even the big Ape-
Trolls and Ogres. If you are on a slope, the downside
has the advantage. If you charge in on a run, the beast
or Orc has to do a preparation move, and during that
time it cannot strike, and you'll get him with one stroke
many times. In one game, I went to Nordmar early
with only an Orc Slayer sword. I ran into a huge pack
of wolves, 10 or 12 at least, and so I charged in fast
and it took only maybe 2 hits each wolf, but as one
went down, I immediately stopped the attack, and
charged another wolf. Each wolf had to do a prep,
and so I got every one of them with no damage to
me. That was when I learned that tactics are more
important in G3 than hit points. If you use speed,
and long range weapons, you'll not take any damage.
If you go in slow, depending on armor and hit points,
you'll take a lot of damage ... and 2 or 3 beasts
will get you quickly.

johns

[WDS]

Post by Zaghadka
Having some trouble with Gothic 3 and armor behavior. I saved up for some Druid
Robes, which by all indications should be *better* than my previous Light Rebel
Armor, but a Shadowbeast just killed me in three hits and I don't remember them
being anything like that damaging before. I had killed several at close range
with a much lower strength and hunt skill, lower health, and light armor on. I
think I would have noticed three hits killing me before.
Do the druid robes suck?
My armor numbers, due to rings and such, are +55 against blades, +55 against
impact and +30 against missile weapons in the druid robe. They were much less
in the Light armor. I have 330 life points. Is there some kind of bug with
druid robes? Because they appear to be worse than Light armor. I'll be checking
the forums, but they're hard to navigate. I noticed similar things with the
regular Rebel Armor not seeming to protect me any better than the Light,
despite the ostensibly higher protection values. So I saved my coin. Now, by
the numbers, clearly *better* robes seem to be affording me LESS protection.
To add insult to injury, I took robes training, which claims it "doubles robe
effectiveness," yet my numbers didn't go up at all! I tried unequipping and
reequipping the armor to no effect. The skill description *seems* to imply that
the Druid robe's +30 vs. impact/blades should go up to +60 (for the robe
alone). I've still got 55's after taking this skill.
So do these numbers mean *anything*? I've already noticed that wolves, even the
wimpy 50 xp variety, and ogres are the most deadly things I've run into so far,
because they can get in about 3 or 4 attacks a second. I can take down a Golem
(400 xp) without breaking a sweat with my staff, but I still can't reliably
take out a pack of lowly wolves. In fact, they seem to be getting HARDER, which
is just *weird*. It seems almost like monsters are doing damage by percentage
of total health, because no matter how many life points I get, the red bar
seems to drop just as fast.
In truth, it doesn't feel like there's a numerically based system working here
at all. More a matching system, where a combination of weapon vs. armor = good
result or bad, regardless of other factors.
What's going on here? I've seen similar things in other places in the game,
such as the one-hit kills against undead if you're using a staff. The combat
feels more like Ultima IX, where your choice of weapon was everything. Like the
crabs which could take a beating with a sword, but were one-hit creampuffs with
a staff. Because I took staff training early, I was able to cut through Gotha
in minutes, but still struggle with a single Shadow Beast.
Is that the way this game works? I'm starting to get frustrated, and I can't
figure out why my level 35 character does *worse* with a pack of wolves than I
could at level 1. If there's something obvious I'm missing, please help,
because I'm ready to put this buggy mess down if it doesn't get better soon. Is
this a "mix and match" combat system?

The staff thing against undead seems almost like a bug to me. I waded
into Gotha laying waste to skeletons with my staff which seemed OK
(ala D&D and blunt weapons) but then I turn a corner and there's the
demon thing right in front of me. I swing once and it goes down.
WTF? I kill the big bad guy with one swing of a stick?

As for armor, it hardly seems to matter. My level 26 fighter in
paladin armor still can be taken down by a couple wolves if they get a
hit in while the very first time I started I took out a whole pack of
wolves right out side the starting city at level 3. Watching my hits
go down I am pretty sure that it reduces the damage you take by some
small amount but it doesn't really look like it has much effect.

In combat all that seems to matter is whether you get the first hit in
and then just wade into the one foe. If your attacks are fast they
will just back up until they run into a wall and then you kill them.
All the others will stand around and wait for you to finish the one
off unless you accidently hit one of them.

It would be REALLY NICE if JoWood would actually explain some of this
basic combat stuff like what does the weapon damage number actually
mean and what do the armor numbers mean.

[johns]

Almost sounds like a wooden staff, and resistance
to heat and cold is the top dog. Maybe a little leather
armor ... farmers clothes ?

johns

[Zaghadka]

Post by WDS

Post by Zaghadka
Is that the way this game works? I'm starting to get frustrated, and I can't
figure out why my level 35 character does *worse* with a pack of wolves than I
could at level 1. If there's something obvious I'm missing, please help,
because I'm ready to put this buggy mess down if it doesn't get better soon. Is
this a "mix and match" combat system?

The staff thing against undead seems almost like a bug to me. I waded
into Gotha laying waste to skeletons with my staff which seemed OK
(ala D&D and blunt weapons) but then I turn a corner and there's the
demon thing right in front of me. I swing once and it goes down.
WTF? I kill the big bad guy with one swing of a stick?
As for armor, it hardly seems to matter. My level 26 fighter in
paladin armor still can be taken down by a couple wolves if they get a
hit in while the very first time I started I took out a whole pack of
wolves right out side the starting city at level 3. Watching my hits
go down I am pretty sure that it reduces the damage you take by some
small amount but it doesn't really look like it has much effect.
In combat all that seems to matter is whether you get the first hit in
and then just wade into the one foe. If your attacks are fast they
will just back up until they run into a wall and then you kill them.
All the others will stand around and wait for you to finish the one
off unless you accidently hit one of them.
It would be REALLY NICE if JoWood would actually explain some of this
basic combat stuff like what does the weapon damage number actually
mean and what do the armor numbers mean.

So basically, I wasted my coin on druid robes. Time to revert to a previous
save and keep that light armor.

Either that or put the game down. What a broken, totally f!cked up rules
system. This is WORSE than Oblivion ever was.

Staff trumps demon. Wolves with "celerity" trumps everything. Ogres with 100
lb. morning stars get to swing 3 times a second, and virtually "blink" back out
of your weapons range everytime you hit them. What a disappointment. :^/

At least it's pretty.

[Nostromo]

Post by Zaghadka
Staff trumps demon. Wolves with "celerity" trumps everything. Ogres with 100
lb. morning stars get to swing 3 times a second, and virtually "blink" back out
of your weapons range everytime you hit them. What a disappointment. :^/
At least it's pretty.

Maybe the benchmark gamer can help you Zag? ;-p

Hey, I suspended my disbelief & just played the damn game. Didn't worry
too much about what weapon/armor was better than what - I just tried
them out every now & then or just went with the highest dmg listed, same
with armor - if it's got better stats/higher cost just accept it must be
doing _something_ better. Or are you vying for #1 benchmark gamer spot
yourself? ;)

[Zaghadka]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:32:07 +1000, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, Nostromo

Post by Nostromo

Post by Zaghadka
Staff trumps demon. Wolves with "celerity" trumps everything. Ogres with 100
lb. morning stars get to swing 3 times a second, and virtually "blink" back out
of your weapons range everytime you hit them. What a disappointment. :^/
At least it's pretty.

Maybe the benchmark gamer can help you Zag? ;-p
Hey, I suspended my disbelief & just played the damn game. Didn't worry
too much about what weapon/armor was better than what - I just tried
them out every now & then or just went with the highest dmg listed, same
with armor - if it's got better stats/higher cost just accept it must be
doing _something_ better. Or are you vying for #1 benchmark gamer spot
yourself? ;)

No. I'd just like a game I can play, and develop strategies that consistently
work. So far, the only consistent strategy is to not let opponents get anywhere
near you and pelt 'em with fireballs and arrows until they drop. I'm glad I put
most of my points into hunting.

I also expect that armor with bigger numbers, you know, protect you BETTER.

But melee combat appears to just be screwed up in this game, and I wanted to
know if it was something *I* was doing or if the game was just BORKED.

Clearly, it's borked. I'll probably just keep playing now, though I'm getting
my money back for those druid robes! <G>

[WDS]

Post by Zaghadka
But melee combat appears to just be screwed up in this game, and I wanted to
know if it was something *I* was doing or if the game was just BORKED.
Clearly, it's borked. I'll probably just keep playing now, though I'm getting
my money back for those druid robes! <G>

Yup, melee is borked. Melee in Gothic 2 was hard. Damn hard. Really
damn hard. But after a while you could figure out the ebb and flow of
combat. Each new critter you came across you had to learn its feint
and attack patterns and when to strike and such. In G3 you are best
off just wading in and hacking as fast as possible against everything
you don't kill at range.

The first time I ran into a shadowbeast in G3 was early in the game
and I killed it easily. I was really confused. Shadowbeasts were
among the toughest opponents in G2 and you couldn't handle them until
late in the game. Heck, a bit later I ran into a cave with THREE
shadowbeasts and I killed them all.

[Zaghadka]

Post by WDS

Post by Zaghadka
But melee combat appears to just be screwed up in this game, and I wanted to
know if it was something *I* was doing or if the game was just BORKED.
Clearly, it's borked. I'll probably just keep playing now, though I'm getting
my money back for those druid robes! <G>

Yup, melee is borked. Melee in Gothic 2 was hard. Damn hard. Really
damn hard. But after a while you could figure out the ebb and flow of
combat. Each new critter you came across you had to learn its feint
and attack patterns and when to strike and such. In G3 you are best
off just wading in and hacking as fast as possible against everything
you don't kill at range.

Right. Consistent strategies yielded consistent results. Unpredictable things
might happen, but not outright buggy weirdness. Oh well. :^(

Thanks for the feedback. <G>

[johns]

Post by Nostromo
Maybe the benchmark gamer can help you Zag? ;-p

I can. In game combat, there is always a "setup"
pose done by whatever you are attacking. The
trick is to measure the time of the "pose" and
strike when it starts. I can now take a simple
Orc Slayer sword, and attack into a large pack
of wolves, and get every one of them. If I were
to just keep clicking away, many of the wolves
would get past their "setup pose" and attack
me. If, instead, I attack into the first setup pose,
and kill the dirty beast, and then backoff and
sprint to the next wolf and trigger his setup pose,
I can continue to do that through the entire pack
and get them all. That was also the trick to
winning the battle at the door in Far Cry where
you had to run and jump through a big fan to
get to the next level. If you ran through the door,
all the Mercs had to enter their setup pose before
they could fire back. The trick was to run out
the door fast, and straight at the nearest Merc.
His setup pose, blocked response from all the
other Mercs, and I could sprint around the corner
and repeat that again, as the Mercs by the fan
came into site. I never had to fire a single shot
while getting into the fan and ending the level.
But, if I did not know about the setup pose, it
never mattered how well I was armored, or how
quick I was, the Mercs could enter their attack
pose, and send my character into a "wounded
or hit pose". In that phase, I cannot fight back
and take repeated hits from multiple sources.
That is why Zag thinks his armor is not working.
He is going at the attack and just triggering
his own "hit pose" .. time after time.
I'll have to try the staff thing. That may actually
trigger a different kind of setup pose by the
filthy beasts.

johns

[Zaghadka]

Post by johns

Post by Nostromo
Maybe the benchmark gamer can help you Zag? ;-p

I can. In game combat, there is always a "setup"
pose done by whatever you are attacking. The
trick is to measure the time of the "pose" and
strike when it starts. I can now take a simple
Orc Slayer sword, and attack into a large pack
of wolves, and get every one of them. If I were
to just keep clicking away, many of the wolves
would get past their "setup pose" and attack
me. If, instead, I attack into the first setup pose,
and kill the dirty beast, and then backoff and
sprint to the next wolf and trigger his setup pose,
I can continue to do that through the entire pack
and get them all. That was also the trick to
winning the battle at the door in Far Cry where
you had to run and jump through a big fan to
get to the next level. If you ran through the door,
all the Mercs had to enter their setup pose before
they could fire back. The trick was to run out
the door fast, and straight at the nearest Merc.
His setup pose, blocked response from all the
other Mercs, and I could sprint around the corner
and repeat that again, as the Mercs by the fan
came into site. I never had to fire a single shot
while getting into the fan and ending the level.
But, if I did not know about the setup pose, it
never mattered how well I was armored, or how
quick I was, the Mercs could enter their attack
pose, and send my character into a "wounded
or hit pose". In that phase, I cannot fight back
and take repeated hits from multiple sources.
That is why Zag thinks his armor is not working.
He is going at the attack and just triggering
his own "hit pose" .. time after time.
I'll have to try the staff thing. That may actually
trigger a different kind of setup pose by the
filthy beasts.

I see, so you're saying that an attack extends you into a "pose" that leaves
you essentially defenseless? If you hang back, your armor works, but when you
attack you leave yourself exposed?

And vice versa for the monsters, if they extend themselves in an attack and
miss, while they're still executing that attack, they are very vulnerable?

That makes a good deal of sense, but seems very counter intuitive as real armor
doesn't work that way (a quarter inch of steel doesn't get thinner because you
just swung a sword.)

I'll try your suggestion. Thanks much. ;^)

What do you suggest for monsters that have lightning attack cycles (3 or more
per second). Do you just back off until they calm down out of their frenzy?